Subject: Carb Vent Tubes
From: papazit "at" juno.com (Chris L Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:07:08 -0500

On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:15:18 -0800 Dick Barrrett writes:
>Chris,
>All the trials bikes I have looked at have different arangements for
>the breather tubes on the carburettor (if any are fitted at all). Can
>you advise what should be fitted where?
>
>I'm paritcularly interested in DelOrto Carbs as fitted to my Fantic
>K-Roo. There seem to be 4 vents, at present with no tubes fitted, one
>either side of the throttle slide body, one on the side of the carb and
>one on the bottom of the float bowl.
>
>Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Regards
>
>Dick Barrett
>barretr3 "at" boat.bt.co.uk

Dick:

The newer Dell'Ortos have only two vent ports or tubes. Tekei (TY Yamaha), Mikuni, and older Dell'Ortos, like your Roo, have 3 in general, with an odd 4th port on the Fantic-supplied Dell'Ortos. I'm not sure if the newer or older Keihins have 2 or 3.

Traditionally, the top two ports on the carb are simply vents for either side of the float bowl. They allow free gravity flow of fuel into the float chamber. They also dump excess fuel. These are high on the carb and won't dump fuel unless the bike is leaned way over. The bottom port, usually on the float bowl, is a high float level overflow. The port is connected to a tube in the float bowl chamber that is about the level of the top of the bowl, higher than the normal operating level. If the float needle valve dumps too much fuel, this port will dump it to the ground, maintaining near the proper float level. If excess fule is in the chamber, the bike will run rich until the motor brings the level back to nominal, with aid of the overlow vent.

For 12 years I ran all my vent hoses up high to keep fuel from being excessively dumped. I learned this trick during my cross country racing days. I could go farther without refueling. While this gave me significantly better fuel economy, especially with 3-port carbs, it would occasionally result in richness when the bike was jostled or put at an extreme angle. While not a problem on a go-fast bike, it caused problems on my TYs and my Fantics...though rarely. I had to remember to always shut off the petcock before transporting the bike, or when zipping down mountains engine off. Otherwise, the engine would flood with fuel. One time, I forgot on a long transport, and had so much fuel in the carnk the engine went solid during the first kick start! Had to turn the bike upside down, remove the plug, and pump out the fuel.

I can attribute hoses run high to a lean condition on my `96 Section. The trapped fuel in the lines looped up and over the carb would on rare occasions prevent replenishing of float bowl fuel and thus lean the bike out. The `96 carb has only 2 hoses, up high on the carb.

Your question has brought up the issue of the role of only 2 vent hoses on the newer Dell'Ortos. Is one a vent and the other a float level dump? One would think they are only 2 vents in the conventional sense, as they are both high on the body of the carb. Next time I have one apart, I'll confirm or deny this. I do know the newer carbs are less prone to fuel waste, possibly by better float needle valves and no high float level dump vent. I think simpler is better in this case.

Now for that oddity: the 4th port located on near the float bowl (lower than the 2 other vents on the carb body under the fuel inlet anf filter) on older Fantics with PHBH26 carbs (large body carbs). The 305 up to at least the `93 Roo had these as OEM carbs. The role of this port is a mystery to me. It goes to the needle jet area at the upper nozzle (NOT to the float bowl), and the normally open port at the bottom carb inlet edge that goes directly to the nozzle is blocked by a brass plug. This port is a bypass for the mixing area of the nozzle, so low pressures due to the venturi effect at the juction of the nozzle and the slide do not affect air supplied to the upper nozzle. What they did with this nasty bit of creeping elegance (an engineering term for over complexity) is to supply this air not from the beginning of the carb inlet, but from the air box. Why? Beats me. All I know is I have had to unplug this hose from the air box on some Fantics to get rid of inconsistent behavior. Some riders also mistakenly plug a vent hose into the air box and get weird effects from pressure drops in the float chamber. If it's working OK leave it alone. You can suck a minor amount of dirt into the nozzle if this hose is not getting its supply from the clan side of the air box as intended. If not I would recommend throwing on a VM26 round slide Mikuni, which works super on this bike. My `93 Roo was a basket case until I put on a Mikuni. Couldn't get that Dell'Orto to run right no matter what!

Specs for VM26 Mikuni for most Fantic 250s and even other bikes are:

Main: 120 to 140 (depending on the bike; start at 130)
Pilot: 35 to 45 (depending on the bike; start at 40)
Needle Jet/Nozzle: O-2
Needle: 5DP39
Slide: 2.0 (comes standard with body)
Air: 1.5 (comes standard with body)

Some bikes will require minor tweaks. The flat slide Mikuni and 28mm Keihin are excellent choices as well. If you replace the carb on the older Fantics, don't forget to plug that open hole for the former weirdo vent.

For all carbs my recommendation is to remove any old and hard hose, replacing them with high quality clear urethane hose of the largest diameter the barbs will handle. Run all hoses straight down from all vents (with that one exception above), to just behind the skid plate so fuel doesn't run all over the back of the motor. Do not use vinyl hose from the hardware store. It will get hard quickly. One rider has cautioned against longer air hoses for deep stream riding, but I've never had a problem. You can run no hoses at all. The only harm this does is make a mess, and increase fire potential, which is generally very low anyway.

Chris (CJ) Johnson
Director of Engineering,
College Park Industries, Inc.
(810) 294-7950 (at CPI), (616) 664-4173 (home office)
papazit "at" juno.com